Curse

assassin of the god · Jun 06, 2007, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I was gunna write something long in this thread until I relized Tommy already posted his book.

Basicly if you hope to catch spikes by watching health bars,thats a bad idea. Tommy gets very specific with this so read his post very carefully.

Metal Skin Slayer · Jun 15, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleed Me An Ocean

The good spikes don't use hexes or conditions, it gives away the spike. Except sf which can own if you have people next to you.

Ya you can watch the caller all you want, but its still hard to tell who is getting spiked. Especially if everyone is balling up.

Cant find any spike which don't inflict a condition/hex:

Ancestor's rage spike (Augury of death) causes a hex and a condition
Bspike (Blood Spike) Enfeebling blood: inflicts weakness on target foe and all nearby foes
Icy Veins spike (icy veins = hex)
Also: most of the balanced/spike builds inflict many conditions/hexes on the target....
on the regular ritspikes (wielders strike/spirit burn/spirit rift) u have to keep an eye on the rifts, move out of them, and if any of your party members is to stupid to just stay in the rifts..... /rage (catching wielders strike/spirit burn strikes, you just need a good reaction time and ofc. a good prot monk)

pls tell me a "good" spike build that doesn't need any hexes/conditions to spike propperly

Randomway Ftw · Jun 15, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Skin Slayer

Cant find any spike which don't inflict a condition/hex:

Ancestor's rage spike (Augury of death) causes a hex and a condition
Bspike (Blood Spike) Enfeebling blood: inflicts weakness on target foe and all nearby foes
Icy Veins spike (icy veins = hex)
Also: most of the balanced/spike builds inflict many conditions/hexes on the target....
on the regular ritspikes (wielders strike/spirit burn/spirit rift) u have to keep an eye on the rifts, move out of them, and if any of your party members is to stupid to just stay in the rifts..... /rage (catching wielders strike/spirit burn strikes, you just need a good reaction time and ofc. a good prot monk)

pls tell me a "good" spike build that doesn't need any hexes/conditions to spike propperly

The fact is that a condition or hex being used by a good spike team will not give away the target.

skillsbas8 · Jun 16, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

a good defense is a strong offense. your whole team isn't going to be standing around lol'ing as you try to infuse. Disrupt their spike and there is nothing to catch.

Aera · Jun 16, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

a good defense is a strong offense. your whole team isn't going to be standing around lol'ing as you try to infuse. Disrupt their spike and there is nothing to catch.

Lol. A good offense is a good defense you mean. If you pwn them before you pwn them, there's not much left to do. How does defending yourself kill them?

skillsbas8 · Jun 16, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

Lol. A good offense is a good defense you mean. If you pwn them before you pwn them, there's not much left to do. How does defending yourself kill them?

Yeah, woops

thats what I mean't.
Not necessarily win, but you could disrupt a spike pretty easily majority of the time.

Sword · Jun 26, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

In addition to what tommy posted it also helps to know what you are infusing against. Say you are infusing vs a toxic sin spike, if you know to look for the poision then you can prot that target before the actual damage comes in. Other spikes that this can be done for are deathly swarm and spirit rift - while spirit rift is very easy to kite and should be announced by mutiple teammates on vent these skills are similar in the sense that you can see the animation before the actual damage occurs, therefore you can watch the battle and see where the damage is occuring before it will happen and prot the target that happens to have that damage animation on him.
Personally, I also like to watch enemies targets if they are a pure spike (aka not a pressure build with spike). Ill keep an enemy targeted for myself throughout the match so that I can watch for the moment when a spike is coming, and focus on the health bars to see which target I should be infusing or protting, also as tommy stated this will allow you to follow the direction of the target and possibly gain you the opportunity to follow the enemy line of sight to their target. The target that i find best to watch is number 1, usually 5-8 have other jobs that dont require a spike in order to kill a target - if if it is a build like necro or rt spike where you have 8 spikers, sometimes these targets will need to heal to prevent a death and wont spike with the rest of the party. Number 1 is almost always the best target to be watching imo; heres why: (1) number 1 is usually the caller and will almost always be spiking (2) Target callers ping the target which means he will be facing the target that the group plans on spiking - this allows for prot far in advance of the actual spike if you can follow the enemy line of sight to a party member (3) number 1 often has a necro secondary if in the case of necro spike usually gives himself the job of rending or gazing targets, seeing a rend or gaze trigger you can quickly switch your vision to health bars and look to see if any party members become unprotted in in the next half second - this is a easy way to pre prot before the spike occurs.

Also, it helps if your team has damage mitigation vs the spike - every decent pvp team has every party member bring shield that are +30 hp with +10 vs every damage type (no, vs plants and demons does not work in this case =p ). So if you fight a r spike then every1 breaks out their peircing shields, in the case or rt spike use lightning shield, icy veins spike cold shields ... you get the idea. This extra armor vs spikes makes infusing much easier for monks to catch.

Know your enemy, know the build they are spiking with, tell your team to roll all shields previous to matches and tell them to use X shield when u fight against Y build when you see it. Know how they are spiking, know which target on the enemy team to watch. And most importantly know the signs of the spike, for preprotting.

digimonizm · Sep 07, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

IMO, the best thing would be to get everyone on Vent/Team speak, then have them scream "Watch 2" "Watch 2" for example if 2 was being spiked. The best way to stop a spike is to listen to the person about to be spiked

LifesRestorer · Sep 07, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

in a traditional 3monk backline (SoD, RC, LoD), Infuse is secondary protocol to all spikes apart from the blood spike.

Fighting legoway for example, SoD watches 1 dervish's target while the RC watches the other one with spirit bond. SoD should be able to stop a ranger spike, and against anything else PS/SB saves should get the job done. If the enchantment is stripped, it's time for the infuse to step in and do his job.

lucky k · Sep 08, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Really this should be kept out of the HA thread and moved to gvg. Amirite?

Good spikes just dont happen in HA anymore. killcount is gone ... its all about the thumpers and they dont spike they train with barbs.

Mello_Macabre · Sep 10, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Well, assuming you are fighting a balance or legoway team, prot monk just has to watch the warrior or dervish, and cast Guardian and SB on who they start to follow.
And if it is a balance team spiking, there will be multiple conditions and hexes, so go go RC and SB
Other then pre prot, infuse is all you have.

Nadia Roark · Sep 14, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

There really isn't anything I can offer that hasn't already been said, but I've actually found that infuse isn't strictly necessary in many cases anymore. It used to be that spikes in old 8v8 relied primarily on heap lots of small damage spells or skills coming in over an obviously very short period of time. Before SoA, the only reliable way to deal with this was infuse. Newer spikes like you'll find on paragon teams or with Wearying Strike AoM dervishes tend to rely on a handful of huge damage spells/skills. Spirit Bond followed by SoA will own a para spike without an urgent need for an infuse (DKiss should about do it, especially if you're an ele or something and already have enchantments on you), and most other spikes can be handled the same way nowadays. Prots are as (or more) important when it comes to countering spikes than the healer is. A lot of times, teams will lose against spikes because the prot assumes he can't do anything about it, but the truth of the matter is a RoF can "catch" most spikes, at least to the extent needed to keep the spike target alive long enough to receive an infuse.

Like anything else it takes practice, and in all honesty it's very likely that a couple teammates will get spiked out before you figure out exactly what they're doing. Against Borat's team last night, for instance, we got rolled up in Halls because we didn't understand the nature of their sin spike: where we expected Shadow Prison, we got Shadow Shroud. Their spike would occasionally come in faster than RC could cast, so removing the poison to prevent Toxic Shock damage was only an option after I threw a RoF or SB on the spike target in order to keep him up for the 3/4 second needed to pop off an RC. Shadow Shroud was a beautiful counter to that tactic, and it cost us several matches.

EDIT: and don't listen to anyone who tells you to take guardian. It looks cheap on paper, but considering the extent to which you need to spam it in order to make it worthwhile, it ends up costing you a whole lot more energy than an Aegis does. I guess if your team can keep NR down and you can stand in a nice channeling well, it'd be okay against spiritwat, but that's about it. Don't rely on Guardian to stop melee damage, SoA is wildly superior. Most spikes don't rely solely on melee or spellcasting damage; most employ a mix of both. SoA will stop any such spike dead in its tracks whereas guardian will only negate a portion of it. Sure it might be the difference between a Deep Wound and no Deep Wound, but those are the breaks. I'd rather have a spike target with SoA and a Deep Wound on him for the 2 seconds it takes to rechare RC, than for a spike target with no DW and a guardian that is a) not preventing caster damage and b) about to wear off. It did get a nice buff a while back, but Guardian is for suckers. :P

TheOneMephisto · Sep 18, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

EDIT: and don't listen to anyone who tells you to take guardian. It looks cheap on paper, but considering the extent to which you need to spam it in order to make it worthwhile, it ends up costing you a whole lot more energy than an Aegis does. I guess if your team can keep NR down and you can stand in a nice channeling well, it'd be okay against spiritwat, but that's about it. Don't rely on Guardian to stop melee damage, SoA is wildly superior. Most spikes don't rely solely on melee or spellcasting damage; most employ a mix of both. SoA will stop any such spike dead in its tracks whereas guardian will only negate a portion of it. Sure it might be the difference between a Deep Wound and no Deep Wound, but those are the breaks. I'd rather have a spike target with SoA and a Deep Wound on him for the 2 seconds it takes to rechare RC, than for a spike target with no DW and a guardian that is a) not preventing caster damage and b) about to wear off. It did get a nice buff a while back, but Guardian is for suckers. :P

Guardian is much more of an anti-pressure skill than an anti-spike skill. Of course it won't deal with caster spikes as well as SoA, but it is much better vs. melee pressure and pretty good against adrenal spikes. The problem with SoA is that it takes time to build up, so that if they're spiking with a couple powerful spells, it won't save the target.

Of course, against power spells/skills you should be using spirit bond either way.

Zabe · Sep 20, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Well, I don't think I can give anymore info, especially for HA today. I got my infuse lessons well over a year ago as SB Infuser and that time the spikes just were so different, rspike or bspike, they don't exist anymore so much.

But in theory I just look for the party menu, I have pretty good reflexes, and i took well over 9 of 10 spikes, maybe nearer 95 in percents. Sometimes the spike is so deadly that it is impossible to infuse, when the damage comes in the same 1/4th of second into the target, thats good and yet, very possible.

One advice is that never, ever trust to someone saying in vent "watch 2" etc. Voice has delay etc, the spike will be gone before you can infuse. Ofcourse, as said you can watch the battlefield for signs like spiritrift, hexes and positioning etc. But I'd suggest to trust your instinct, when you are good infuser, you can smell what is their target. Is your mesmer or ranger shutting their spike and defence? I bet the spike will be there. Other famous spike targets are the infuser itself ofcourse.

You just got tomahawked · Sep 23, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Also, as a prot monk wat should you do against spikes?

TheOneMephisto · Sep 23, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

Also, as a prot monk wat should you do against spikes?

Try to find out who they're spiking and prot spirit/spirit bond/shield of deflecction + rof it. Make sure to keep an eye out for spikes on your infuser.

Div · Sep 26, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfie

IMHO get good prot monk and You will be alright.

If you face bspike target their caller and you should get (as someone said earlier) a lil bit more time to infuse.

IMHO I want cookies! And ward against bloodstealing on prot monk.

Nadia Roark · Sep 26, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

IMHO I want cookies! And ward against bloodstealing on prot monk.

Actually I've found myself more and more useful against necrospike. Back in the old 8v8 (before the ill-advised 6v6 change) I could basically just /dance in the middle of the map, since infuse and other spot heals are basically the only real counter to life stealing. But now that I have Gift of Health, and they have Icy Veins and Oppressive Gaze spikes (which actually deal damage) I actually get to give a damn about what I'm doing in a match versus necrospike. Since that SS + Vamp Gaze spike has died (thank god) necrospike has actually been slightly more enjoyable to play against.

exiled55555 · Oct 01, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

most of the time the person who is being spiked knows that they r being spiked so if ur on vent(which u should be if ur doin ha or gvg) just say watch number 4(or what ver number u r) and ur monks should heal/prot u

elektra_lucia · Oct 05, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

In game ping 400 (nearly half a second).
Vent ping 250 to infuser.
Vent ping 250 to person calling spike.

Plus persons reactions to the sound from vent.
Then the messed up reaction in game:

You're more likely to turn into a red bar monk when someone on vent is saying spike on one!

Then you find out that he was actually wrong and there's a spike on six. That's excluding the time it takes for them to actually say there's a spike, after they have stuttered from the excitement.

Conclusion: Not good way to monk in my opinion.

Better to look for yourself and see spikes in game. Practice it. Multi tasking is a really difficult thing to learn sure some will be talented and pick it up. I don't agree with having to rely on ANYONE on vent to improve your monking skill in a match in HA. You should be able to prot efficiently without the need for vent. Note I say prot because I don't think losing 300 health in HA is a great way to save a spike.

There will be a time that vent will be the icing on the cake but for the majority of people they won't have to worry about that for a long time especially not for HA. A warrior may know he's being spiked because he see's every character looking at him. Then will say on vent. If you did not notice this, and you have then monked better because you have used the information on vent. This is not success, this is failure because you should have seen the characters looking at the warrior before you heard it on vent.